The inspiration for this post comes from the murkier recesses of my memory. As I mulled the memory over, I did not recall whether or not it was my own hard-working immigrant grandfather or some oldster immigrants -- in a movie that may have featured Edward G. Robinson and Richard Conte -- who said something like this.
"This is why we came to America: to get away from gangsters like you. This is America! Get out. Get out!"
Now that I think about it again, it couldn't have been Pop. He saw what was going on in the early 50s and was quite clear that he thought that when (not if) the racketeers got fully organized in this country that they'd make those where he came from look like Sunday school kids. It took less than 20 years for me to see what he said was going to be true. (I'm still not sure my dad fully agreed -- I was ahead of him in seeing the decline of all protective American institutions. More likely as not this is another example of needing to skip a generation to find agreement.)
Here is where my memory of those words quoted above gets murkier still. I have a vague recollection that the immigrant oldsters (hah -- in the eyes of 5 year old me the characters may have been in their late 40s) were answered by a burst of sub machine-gun fire.
Must've been fiction. That would never happen here. /s
They who are seeking to take down America think because they've set things up for you to remain ignorant that you are also stupid. Do what you can to see they are not rewarded for their rottenness..
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If it helps, I believe I heard this line before, also.
ReplyDeleteBut all beliefs are toxic.
LOL. Not in this case. The exception DISPROVES the rule.
ReplyDeleteSo, you noticed I did not challenge a certain assertion -- a belief in development -- at the source, didn't you? That site is more welcoming of disagreement than others that I still visit, but not if the same person does it all the time.
Another thing: challenging not-yet-sure but appealing beliefs too often only serves to entrench them. When faulty belief may be a position that a friend may later regret, I wouldn't want to have contributed to its entrenching when I suspect that my contesting it would mostly hinder my aim.
I consider it good enough that the idea is still being mulled over, which I know to be the case. You, OTOH, did well there.
Thanks, that means a lot to me. It bothers me that I can't follow og there.
ReplyDeleteI can't comprehend the evil in having a belief system that motivates you to charitable behavior.
"I can't comprehend the evil in having a belief system that motivates you to charitable behavior."
ReplyDeleteMuslims believe that stoning a woman that has been raped is charitable behavior. Does that make it ok?
Who are you to judge what is charitable behavior?
You cannot give me a single example of "Charitable" behavior that I cannot prove evil. You aren't "bothered" by not being able to follow me, you prefer ignorance to knowledge. Choose knowledge. Belief is a jail you willingly lock yourself in.
All beliefs are toxic. I can prove that. You have to be willing to learn, before you can understand.
"You cannot give me a single example of "Charitable" behavior that I cannot prove evil."
ReplyDeleteJesus died on the cross so that I wouldn't have to be separated from God. That is a charitable act with no evil. If you don't agree with that statement, then we will not agree regarding much else.
I once could not agree with that statement and therefore cannot hold it against anyone if they can't.
"Who are you to judge what is charitable behavior? "
I cannot rely on my own judgment, it is too subjective.
So Jesus gave me a guideline: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Og, I've admired you're intellect and abilities since I first became aware of you. One of the things I've been proud of is that you once said I could go in your toolbox any day. You probably don't remember that, but I do.
I'm a bright guy. It bothers me when I can't follow a logical argument It does bother me that I can't grasp what your saying, because I assume that what you're saying is true, and I'm not getting it.
But you don't have to insult me. I've indicated I'm willing to learn.
It's ridiculous to say that I prefer ignorance to knowledge just because I don't understand what you're getting at (or if I did, dare to disagree) .
You say all beliefs are toxic and you can prove that. You haven't done it yet.
"Jesus died on the cross so that I wouldn't have to be separated from God. "
ReplyDeleteYou were there?
Really, you were there? because if you were not actually there, and did not actually witness it with your own eyes, you only know what other people have told you, and you have no proof that it actually happened other than what you read in a book. If we don't agree on that, you're not very bright.
You have to use logic to follow a logical argument, and you aren't, you're basing everything you say on feelings, and beliefs.
Tell me five of your beliefs, and I will prove them to be evil.
"Og, I've admired you're intellect and abilities since I first became aware of you. One of the things I've been proud of is that you once said I could go in your toolbox any day."
That still stands. I'm capable of disagreeing without being disagreeable; trust me, you will know when I insult you, I have not done so yet and do not intend to, I'm relating what I see as facts.
"All beliefs are toxic."
ReplyDeleteAll? Such an absolute number is a heck of a bar you've set for yourself.
"I can prove that. "
That's not your belief, but you are claiming it as a fact. So go ahead: prove all.
Lying by definition is wrong.
ReplyDeleteA belief by definition cannot be proven.
believing in something establishes for the believer as fact, something that by definition, cannot be proven.
Assuming the veracity of something that cannot be proven is the same as lying, for stating as fact, something that cannot be proven is no different than lying.
Establishing the habit of assuming non factual things are factual is the same as establishing the habit of lying.
If you will lie about small things, eventually you will lie about big things.
Choosing to believe in unprovable things will lead anyone, eventually, to take up arms in defense of the lies they have told themselves about what is factual and what is non factual. Islam, global warming, abortion, etc. are all specific examples that come to mind.
I'd love to be proven wrong, so please do. The more I test the theory, the more accurate it seems. I don't "believe" it, I do theorize it, and it's standing up to any test i can place before it, so far. I would love to be able to say "with the exception of X, all beliefs are toxic" I cannot, as yet, solve for X.
"You cannot give me a single example of "Charitable" behavior that I cannot prove evil."
ReplyDeleteLet's try again: Saving a drowning baby.
What if I used the word "posit" instead of belief?
I'm trying to understand your terms.
"believing in something establishes for the believer as fact, something that by definition, cannot be proven"
In doing a google "define belief", it turns out your definition is the commonly accepted.
So maybe my understanding of the word belief has been wrong.
My beliefs are subject to change as my understanding changes. And they have.
I haven't regarded belief to be established fact.
So maybe I'm wrong there.
Columbus believed the world was round. He believed this before he proved it. If he did not, he would not have made the atempt. He did not think he'd run into an unexpected continent. But his "belief" was not evil.
Many a scientist has posited a belief that he could not prove for lack of technology. That does not make him a liar. it might make him wrong. He might later be proven correct.
But to be convinced of something by the facts you have at hand does not make that conviction "evil". It may be an evil conviction. It may lead to penicillin.
You seem to be quite convinced of your "theory". So much so that you said of me: "you prefer ignorance to knowledge." because I disagreed. (This implies that your position is fact.)
You don't know me well enough to make that assertion, yet you state something you don't have proof of as fact.
It came across toxic.
"Choosing to believe in unprovable things will lead anyone, eventually, to take up arms..."
"Anyone" is rather unprovable. That seems not to be the case with many Christian martyrs (if we can trust historians), however much the case with Islamic martyrs (if we can trust news accounts).
It doesn't seem to be the case with many people who believe in unprovable things. Just those who actually take up arms, etc.
I run on the supposition (is that better?) that people will believe what they want to believe.
It's the condition of their heart that is toxic or non-toxic.
This week I bought a Fanuc pendant (RJ3) on ebay that I believed to be acceptable to my application. It was not. I wanted single channel and didn't realize dual channel was available in that model (black and white). I was convinced enough to spend the money. I learned something and my belief changed. It was not evil. And they'll accept an exchange.
Are these acceptable definitions?:
Faith is a characteristic of people. It is defined preponderously with trust in or of a person.
Knowledge is an acceptance of provable or evidenced facts.
Belief is confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof (dictionary). I would add, based on the data we have at hand, even a reasonable extrapolation of provable or evidenced facts.
""Anyone" is rather unprovable"
ReplyDeleteLet's just take a look at that. Remember the Crusades? Now, I know the crusades were a war fought against muslims who were murdering Christians, but most of the people who foughyt in them never understood that. They were fighting for Christianity,and that's what got them riled up to GO fight in the first place. Then there was the Inquisition. Christians against Jews. Let's not forget the Christians that murder abortionists. All this happens in the name of belief. Among Christians, there are those who would take up arms against other Christians because their Beliefs are different. North and south ireland, anyone?
Ed: I'm convinced Your heart is in the right place. I know that you want to do what is right and you struggle like all other Christians to do so. Unfortunately, you've been taught- like I have, like others have, that you need to "believe" certain things to be a "good Christian". As far as I can tell, that's the hokiest bullshit on record; I see what all the differing segments of Christianity are taught to believe, and it makes me sick to my stomach, because I see only bad coming from it.
Faith is pure. You pretty clearly have it. Hang on to it. And anytime someone tells you to "Believe" something, run like hell, it means they want something from you, as far as I've ever seen.
BTW, Cristobal Colon knew the earth was round, all sailors did, at that time, he didn't have to believe anything.
"But to be convinced of something by the facts you have at hand does not make that conviction "
Penicilolin? Really? you think belief had anything to do with that? Penecillin was discovered by accident, but it was proven effective by hard science. No belief was ever involved.
"Let's try again: Saving a drowning baby."
What belief is required to save a drowning baby? That's not a belief, that's a physical act.
If you want to try to understand, if you really want to, then you have to do as I've asked, and give me five examples oif things you believe, and I'll show you how that belief can be or is flawed. I have yet to find a belief that will hold up to that scrutiny.